Disc structure hit-stun
B
BIVN
When attempting to use straight/uppercut/kick on a structure that is simultaneously being hit by a disc, the structure does not move.
I admit there are ways to fight against this, but I am frustrated that this is such and easy thing for the opponent to do.
On the Ring it can't last for long as the opponent loses space with every disc, but on Pit they can have their back to the wall without repercussion.
If I recall correctly, in a future update to the damage system the player will take damage from being forced into the environment/structure. This may help.
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T
Tamrell
Hi all! in my many matches I often come across people trying to do the reverse. For me I feel it's actually pretty doable to deal with as anyone can only target one structure with discruption at a time anyway:
You just ignore the structure your opponent is hitting and do other things/setups and not try to combo that one structure (maybe you can even save it for later when your opponent shifts their attention again!)
It reminds me a bit of how in lower levels of smash people just attack a shielding opponent for free but then when you up the level unsafe attacks on shield get punished (and this is something many players are frustrated about untill they learn patience with it and get into the more complex baiting/conditioning part of competitive smash)
For reference this is a clip from a fight where it happened thrice and in each instances you can see me immediately adapting and saving the discrupted structure for later when it's safe to use again:
I'm not saying it's necessarily easy to deal with, but you don't _have_ to do anything with the structure that's getting hit. The solution is to be aware of when it's happening and using the fact that your opponent is focussing on discrupting that structure: now they're actually wide open for anything you set up from behind the wall
I can actuall see this adding a nice complexity when the meta evolves because it forces people to play less linearly in a "I spawn a structure and only do thing with the structure in front of me" fashion
please let me know what you think about this!
Maarten Braaksma (Project Lead)
Tamrell: Always lovely to see the good side of a story. I'm curious what other players think.
A
Abbathor
I think that my main problem with your argument is that in rumble, things aren't generally safe/unsafe. Discs are able to unintuitively stop your combo by being spammed, with little to no repercussion to doing it. There is no real downside to disrupting with disc because we have no real way to punish it. In your example with people whaling on people blocking attacks, the shield is a limited resource that you have to use intelligently. Disc is an infinite resource that stops any structure, and when taken to the logical extreme, you are able to essentially parry your opponents mid combo from any distance as much as you want with little to no punishment for doing so. Disc is the fastest and longest range move, acting as both defense and offense, with the highest spawn pace. The game is built around having larger structures being slower but able to go through the smaller structures, and you almost always have time to react to your smaller structure getting destroyed by spawning a structure to meet your opponents structure, parry, rts, or ground. I also think the way that disc currently works is too overwhelming because you can switch targets just as fast as your opponent spawns new structures, and it leads to the game becoming a slow long range disc fight where you can only get in chip damage while playing at long ranges. While playing even ~1000bp blackbelts as client, they can use a lot of discs to prevent me from using my structures at range because it requires longer 4 hit combos that have many opportunities to be disked and give large gaps for opponents to sneak their discs through, forcing you to retaliate by using structures as cover and occasionally peeking out to disc them back, a style of gameplay that I think generally limits opportunities of what your opponent can do. I'm sure there may be other high skill ways of dealing with this strategy like advanced movement, but I don't think a simple strategy should require you to spend many hours learning a specific play style so you can beat it in a way that keeps the game feeling fun at a decent pace. I think long matches like the grand vs shoeless match in SoC is a bad example of discruption, but a good example of how it can feel very limiting to be zoned out in the way discs currently do it, and discruption only exacerbates the problem.
Please tell me what you think because I'm sure you can poke holes in my argument, but I want to provide my opinion to help make a better game for everyone.
s
shoeless_man
Abbathor very well put
s
shoeless_man
Maarten Braaksma (Project Lead) i'd echo abbathor's thoughts. After going through footage of this saga and examples. It's true you can 'deal with it', but when playing to win against this strategy it makes for an incredibly dull game. Because the most effective strategy is waiting for the disc spammer to get bored. It's just too easy and effective to break the games combo system and balancing of small to large structures with disc spam hitstun abuse. Combine this with the fact disc spamming gives pushback protection, cubes and walls will phase through the opponent most of the time if you manage to avoid the hitstun and get a combo off.
Walls also block line of sight. Spam i get being able to predict, but the effect doesnt require spam. A single disc can still eat up a combo, and you cant predict that. Its not worth losing all the other mechanics over this though, i think Ulvaks suggestion, or a rework of disc's properties could be good, allowing them to be waterbended for example and not break on contact no matter what.
B
BIVN
I like these ideas and would be down to try this stuff out on a test branch, if that's what it comes to.
T
Tamrell
I would suggest just increasing the cooldown for disk instead of messing with the mechanics
s
shoeless_man
Adding to what others have said. Tweaking this in any way would have mass flow on effect. I'd say whatever the fix is, it would be the perfect time to PLAYTEST the fix in a different branch of the game before committing to a change.
U
UlvakSkillz
I would very much suggest buffing the issue instead of fixing the problem. There are multiple mechanics tied to hitstop. So I suggest making the move that never happened because of hitstop happen after the hitstop finishes.
G
Grand
some counter arguements for this and hitstop in general
so what happening here is, disks are causing hitstop on the wall and so it becomes immune to modifiers which, isnt exactly nice
but this exact same mechanic allows for deadstop,railguns,parry stasis,ricochets, hitstop ricochets.
what generally happens in hitstop is that it becomes invincible and unmodifiable, but removing this feature or adjusting it could affect alot of these mechanics so its hard to balance
from the boss chat in sholess' discord we had some chats abt some solutions and one that ulvak brought forward is making modifiers happen after hitstop with a delay instead of getting completly deleted/stunned and i do think that could work and not affect the current mechanics too much
T
Tamrell
I think there are few people in the game who are abusing this byprodruct of the mechanics as much as I do (and it's extremely effective)
Even though I enjoy using it I think it would be nice if being creative would be more rewarding than just being able to hit the disk spawn limit (even using it feels pretty monotone, I'm just always applying pressure and trying to disrupt my opponent because it works).